perhaps a dumb question, but are they planning to demolish the existing building rather than reuse it?  That thing was built to store sherman tanks…..

There’s already NIMBYs coming out against this. They’re worried that the bike lane on the South Street Bridge will be in shadow most of the day. That’s not a joke, that’s what they’re worried about. 

That’s a preposterous glut of parking for a site that’s in a dense and thriving residential neighborhood and that’s a five-minute walk from the University City Regional Rail stop. If they really build 1 parking spot per 1K sqft, that can only mean that both CHOP and the City have decided that Center City/G-Ho houses and SEPTA trains are unacceptable options for the vast majority of CHOP’s employees. Low expectations for Philadelphia are self-fulfilling prophecies.

I <3 bike lanes, but… really?

 …And not about the excessive amount of planned parking? Not about whether or not they retain the Kennedy school building? Not about the total lack of renderings?

Geez, there’s still so much we don’t know about this project, and NIMBYs pick a concern that is entirely LAUGHABLE…

If they’re building 30-40 story buildings I would bet on the vocational school being demolished.  And it’s supposedly a LEED project… yes, you can somehow obtain LEED status while demolishing an existing building rather than reusing it.  LEED is a joke.

Maybe it will fulfill the demand for neighborhood parking so plans for things like Greater St Matthews won’t be opposed anymore… Or maybe not.

 Correction: the comment I got from a NIMBY about this was worried about the riverfront trail being in shadow most of the day and the parking garage being jammed into the South Street Bridge bike lane.

Everything is getting knocked down and 3 decent sized towers, sort a cross between the Cira center ish towers are going up. The open space they are providing is amazing (and enormous). Since they have more money than god they can do a lot of things that wouldn’t make any economic sense for a traditional developer. The best part of the presentation was when the architect, perhaps accidentally, took at shot a Navel Square a gated compound not suited for an urban environment.    

Pictures wanted.

In an I2 district you need one spot for every four “bed design capacity” for a hospital.  For office use you need 1 spot for every 1,000 square feet.  They’re just building to code.

 …Which is the problem, when the code obviously mandates excessive amounts of parking.

 The old Kennedy school is Ragnarok-proofed. It was designed to hold TANKS, for crying out loud! They’re gonna need more money than God, and spend every last cent of it, if they hope to bring that thing down.

For my money, it’s better (cheaper, wiser) just to build around the damn thing.

It will not be difficult to demolish that building.  Demo/sitework is going to be a tiny part of a budget containing high rise towers.

It’s not doomsday, it’s development.  We’re a long way before SWCC is over developed.

I don’t think the code should have parking minimums so you won’t get too much argument from me on this.  The requirement in CMX-4/5 would be 0 spaces but it has this requirement because it’s an I2 site.  If you rezone the partial commercial (which, maybe it should be) then it requires 0 spaces for office use.

I’m excited for this new opportunity to bring commerce and vibrancy to the part of our neighborhood! 

The area down there (including both sides of the river) is expanding beyond septas ability to adequately serve it given current infrastructure. U city station is not served by all trains…the 12 and 40 are lacking options as they do not connect with 30th or suburban and are slow. That isn’t to say it shouldn’t be built but the city needs to work on improving transportation options.

 I take it you’ve forgotten what they had to do with Jack Frost? They had to demolish it TWICE, their first attempt a complete failure.

That was a failure of the demolition contractor, who subsequently was banned from working in Philadelphia.  Far more robust structures have been demolished without incident.  

1) to get an idea of CHOP and HUP place-making, just take a look at the mess that is their campus  on the west side of the Schuylkill — it looks like the worst of the Sunbelt, barely walkable, no amenities and an ugly, cancerous aspect to it.

2) the South Street plan is based squarely in the old ’60s–a driveway will lead right onto the South Street Bridge so that the work force can stream across the bike lane for an hour each morning and afternoon to EZ-on/EZ off the I-76 ramps, which are the most backed up in the city.

The developers portrayed their “innovative” , direct parking ramp onto the bridge as way to spare the neighborhood any car traffic. In truth, their plan depends on so much car traffic that they couldn’t shoehorn it off the site any other way!

3) The developers at the meeting noted that they were told to have NO residential on the riverfront property. Typical of CHOP not to realize their most important asset is their work force, and to maximize the need for private cars and shuttle buses, which will make the bridge again a nightmare for cyclists and pads.

4) CHOP and the developers keep harping on the bike path and green space they are giving us — those were in the master plan for the area years ago and had to be retained… but now they will be far less useful or pleasant–good luck keeping a park green when its in the shadow of an office tower and bathed in exhaust three times a day.

The “parkland” will be like hanging out behind CHOP’s parking garage today — something no one in their right mind would do.

5) The worst element is that CHOP, a health care organization, will bring tons of carcinogens and automobiles into a residential neighborhood in the service of an outdated form of sprawl development. Their development will increase the respiratory ailments and cancer in the immediate neighborhood, not to mention auto-crash-related deaths, particularly of children.

6) CHOP will no doubt be aided if they succeed by some clueless old school Schuylkill neighbors who think as long as any development has tons of parking, that it won’t impact the area–except when those cars drain in and out every hour… 

7) An ideal development: half the size–half residential, so that CHOP / HUP  can realize the maximum value for the land, and offer staff a walkable community.  Use the Venturi/ Rauch plan that already exists to make the JFK bldg a great living space and a design triumph.  Build with 1/10 the parking and earn a real LEED by going NYC-style and expecting nearly all staff to use transit. We’re a big city and this is not an Exton or Atlanta former cornfield development.
Make the University City station a true hub — with amenities, and have a Trenton special there twice a day or more… 

9) The CHOP HUP UPENN axis should (and will, I believe) face a battle as big as the one they had when they set out to destroy the neighborhood around 34th and Walnut/Sansom Streets… which was a tie — the White Dog and a few businesses managed to survive and today Penn shows them off on campus tours.

Michael McGettigan.
–Schuylkill 

1) to get an idea of CHOP and HUP place-making, just take a look at the mess that is their campus  on the west side of the Schuylkill — it looks like the worst of the Sunbelt, barely walkable, no amenities and an ugly, cancerous aspect to it.

2) the South Street plan is based squarely in the old ’60s–a driveway will lead right onto the South Street Bridge so that the work force can stream across the bike lane for an hour each morning and afternoon to EZ-on/EZ off the I-76 ramps, which are the most backed up in the city.

The developers portrayed their “innovative” , direct parking ramp onto the bridge as way to spare the neighborhood any car traffic. In truth, their plan depends on so much car traffic that they couldn’t shoehorn it off the site any other way!

3) The developers at the meeting noted that they were told to have NO residential on the riverfront property. Typical of CHOP not to realize their most important asset is their work force, and to maximize the need for private cars and shuttle buses, which will make the bridge again a nightmare for cyclists and pads.

4) CHOP and the developers keep harping on the bike path and green space they are giving us — those were in the master plan for the area years ago and had to be retained… but now they will be far less useful or pleasant–good luck keeping a park green when its in the shadow of an office tower and bathed in exhaust three times a day.

The “parkland” will be like hanging out behind CHOP’s parking garage today — something no one in their right mind would do.

5) The worst element is that CHOP, a health care organization, will bring tons of carcinogens and automobiles into a residential neighborhood in the service of an outdated form of sprawl development. Their development will increase the respiratory ailments and cancer in the immediate neighborhood, not to mention auto-crash-related deaths, particularly of children.

6) CHOP will no doubt be aided if they succeed by some clueless old school Schuylkill neighbors who think as long as any development has tons of parking, that it won’t impact the area–except when those cars drain in and out every hour… 

7) An ideal development: half the size–half residential, so that CHOP / HUP  can realize the maximum value for the land, and offer staff a walkable community.  Use the Venturi/ Rauch plan that already exists to make the JFK bldg a great living space and a design triumph.  Build with 1/10 the parking and earn a real LEED by going NYC-style and expecting nearly all staff to use transit. We’re a big city and this is not an Exton or Atlanta former cornfield development.
Make the University City station a true hub — with amenities, and have a Trenton special there twice a day or more… 

9) The CHOP HUP UPENN axis should (and will, I believe) face a battle as big as the one they had when they set out to destroy the neighborhood around 34th and Walnut/Sansom Streets… which was a tie — the White Dog and a few businesses managed to survive and today Penn shows them off on campus tours.

Michael McGettigan.
–Schuylkill 

The concept:  a suburban mall campus, served by thousands of cars, with unusable, smoggy “green spaces” around it. Riverfront views used for (their tag) “back office operations” space that will be dark at night.

They are not making a “tremendous improvement” to the area!

The current state of the area is: nicely scaled, affordable row homes, as well as a bigger gated community and a nice mix of larger condos and etc. — served by the most walkable and bikeable bridge in the city, with manageable auto traffic.

 I’m assuming he just means they should create a route between UC and Trenton

The South Street ramps are actually some of the best in the city now with the new bridge and light timing.  The only real opportunities for backups are during Penn Relays or Penn graduation which are mitigated by manual police control of the lights.  With that said, 5000 employees just over the bridge, even if a fraction of them travel by car, will certainly be a significant bump in traffic.  The timing of the lights can always be adjusted to accommodate this but it will definitely be inconvenient for peds and cyclists traveling from one side to the other.

I’m all for creating disincentives to driving in an urban environment in order to spur more reliance on public transportation, but the truth of the matter is that if CHOP didn’t offer so much off street parking the neighbors would be up in arms about it.  Everyone would complain about CHOP employees parking on their streets for lack of parking at the office buildings and the hurdles for neighborhood approval would be that much more difficult to overcome. 

The park shouldn’t suffer for sunlight any worse than it does now with the existing building there, not to mention that it’s west facing and really isn’t in shadows to begin with.  Keeping it green with all those carbon emissions from cars also shouldn’t be a problem seeing that plants thrive on carbon dioxide and it’s already a stone’s throw from an interstate highway…

First thing you should know is that CHOP is a separate entity as HUP and PENN.  They are not one and the same.  That said, its a little upsetting how much you seem to disrespect CHOP.  The #1 children’s hospital in the nation (and probably the world) is in your backyard.  You shouldn’t automatically treat them as your enemy that you are going to “battle”.  That doesn’t mean you can’t have concerns and should bow to their every wish.  I think it does mean they deserve some respectful cooperation as they try to further their mission….but that’s just my opinion.  

And Mike, since you put your full name in your post, I can guess that you are same person that owns the bike shop right across the bridge in The Left Bank.  Do you realize that building was purchased and developed (through Dranoff) by UPENN?  If you are the same, I can see your motives regarding bicycles and bike path’s etc and there is nothing wrong with that.  But CHOP paid a pretty penny for that parcel, and I don’t think it was to create another Toll Brothers facility…..not even for half of it as you suggest.  Within the 10 blocks directly to the east of this development is a huge (still evolving) inventory of residential real estate.  Much of it is well-suited for the people who will be working at this site.  I live in the neighborhood, and if anything, I’m getting concerned there is too much residential and not enough commercial.

A couple other final points.  I also thought one of the proposed uses for the site was to create a hotel to be used specifically by parents of children being treated at CHOP.   Would you suggest that they also find alternate means of transportation?

Besides the reasons outlined below by First Citizen, I believe the # number of parking spots provided by CHOP for the site is what is required by code…though I could be wrong there.

Also, did you know at one point UPenn had planned to erect a bike/pedestrian only bridge at Locust St.?  If you are so passionate about bikes and pedestrians, why not try to get that revived as part of your strategy?  I doubt you will have any resistance on that.

The project is going to get done…some way some how.   A hospital that cures thousands and thousands of sick children every year is going to win over the concerns of some people that like to ride bikes.  That’s not to diminish your standing, but its the reality.  Try to work with them and cooperate….and not “go to battle”.

Are there any renderings of this proposal available?  I live in the neighborhood and noticed that there seems to be some kind of large display in the “lobby” of the JFK building, but I couldn’t tell if it was for the new CHOP project or the old condominium project. 

 I’ve seen some infamous renderings somewhere *cough cough*.  The facade was a series of waves, each floor ‘misaligned’ with a disparate protrusions and exposed horizontal edges finished with vibrant colors of the rainbow. 

Sound like what you saw?

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